Phil Jackson Interview (Part 2)

Sean Fagan of RL1908.com

[Read Part 1]

RL1908: In 1958 you had another Lions tour of Australia...

Phil Jackson: We had a top side. I think it was as much as us being good as Australians not. Vinnie Karalius got stuck into Kel O'Shea and Norm Provan and he quietened them down a bit and they'd given us a lot of trouble in 1954.

But then as I say we had Alex Murphy we had a top side and we were just a bit too good for Australia then, but it wasn't much in it. Oh no, no, in the last Test we flogged them didn't we? We hurt them.

And I remember standing behind the goal line and they were taking a goal or something and we were getting some stick off the crowd. Now I don't whether it was against Casey, the referee, or us, but I remember there was food and everything coming.

There were 7oz beer glasses coming across you know and Alex Murphy turned and peeled a banana and thrust it up in the air at them! This bloody banana and the crowd went berserk, but we never worked out whether it against us or the referee. But we couldn't care less, we won the game anyway. We say stick to 'em fellas we're enjoying it! That was a good trip for us we ended up winning.

When the '62 side came here they were a good side with about 15 real good players but there was a drop in standard after that. And they were a bit lucky because they didn't have too many injuries. But in '58 we had two good sides, so if we had any injuries the replacements they were still up there. Well the two locks were Vince Karalius and Derek Turner. Well Vince Karalius was much lauded here as one of the best locks to come and I reckon Derek Turner were a better player.

RL: Which club was he from?

PJ: Wakefield - well I think he was with the Hull team first but he finished up with Wakefield. Rocky Turner ah he was a great player. Of course the halves were Bolton and Murphy, Alan Prescott the front row, Tommy Harris is the hooker, Norman Herbert front rower, the second row were Huddart, Brian Edgar a much underrated player he was a great player Brian Edgar. As a matter of fact I was just talking to Johnny Raper just the other day and he rated Edgar very highly, and Vince Karalius was at lock.

RL: You lost the 1958 1st test easily in Sydney, but the 2nd test in Brisbane is remembered well by the Brits?

PJ: I didn't play as I was injured. I had a shoulder injury all the trip. No knee troubles, I had every injury but a knee and when I got home it was the knee that played up, yeah. The funny thing was though because we're not that familiar with Australia, we were up there and the management made the decision, the game being played in Brisbane, to send us to Surfers Paradise. Well, of course, there was uproar over it. You're joking they saying for pre- test staying at Surfers Paradise.

Of course we didn't know just what Surfers Paradise, what the image of it was, you know. But we went down there and it was only single storey buildings, bungalows, as we called them on the sands and that. It was just perfect and being professionals we did the right thing. We didn't know anything about the night life and all that and we just lapped the sunshine up and the beach and everything - it really revived us you know, it was tremendous.

RL: Your side kept losing players in the 2nd test, yet managed a great win. What did you make of that?

PJ: Very, very tough game. The dressing after was like a hospital ward and we had about 4 players had to go to hospital after the game and we had Prescott with breaks. It was an enormous, enormous win. Australia was a good side then don't worry and of course, the pressure was on as we'd been flogged in the first test, so the tour was on the line then but we won.

RL: You really produced a surprising turnaround from Sydney.

PJ: Oh yeah they were very confident and Karalius had an absolute blinder and he got stuck into the forwards. You've got to get on top in the forwards in tests and we certainly did that day and Alan Prescott was magnificent and he broke his arm early on and he played the full game with a broken arm. But the Australians often said that Alan was carried and I've seen it on film, Harry and Alan carry his arm, he's clutching it to his stomach and catching the ball with one hand. Now the Australians are saying nowadays the Aussies would grab that arm, grab it and swing around by it and you'd have to go off. But the Aussies didn't do it that day and they've never been able to explain why.

RL: So he wasn't evading them?

PJ: Oh no, he was taking the ball with one arm and taking up and he was tackling with one arm.

RL: So when you got to Sydney did you think you had their measure? Were you confident?

PJ: Oh no, well we knew it was going to be tough but we were more confident in our own ability but hell it was anyone's test you know it was, we were that close at that stage. We didn't realise that we'd got together so well that we were firing that well, but we just did fire on that day and it meant so much to us. We had all the confidence from the second test. We were a good side that had got together and we'd come over the hard time, you know, with the second test and we said we've got it now and it worked out that way.

But looking back it was a good side, you know, there was experience and youth there. Yeah it was a top side and as I say a lot of them came back in '62. Now in '62 there was even more experience the Murphys and Boltons you know, so it was a good era for English Rugby League.

RL: With Prescott out, as captain did you talk to the players before the game?

PJ: Not a lot, we all knew what was on the line, you know. There wasn't a lot in those days the captain addressing the team and that, you know, as Prescott would say, you know what we got to do lads, cause we were nearly all experienced players with many seasons behind us in England and we knew what was required. Prescott would just say we just got to muscle up in our tackles and control the ball and we'd win the game, you know, which we did. I captained the game from 5/8th, which I wasn't a stranger too. I played a lot of 5/8 on tour. The 5/8ths seemed to get injured when I was on tour so I filled in quite a bit. I used to enjoy it. I liked it.

RL: There's a much seen photo of you carrying your Lions’ captain after winning the Ashes, who was obviously still injured. There a couple of guys carrying him on their shoulders and you're just there to the side wearing an Aussie jumper...

PJ: That’s right, Alan's up there with him arm in plaster. He was a great captain Alan Prescott and we had a good training system. He'd take the forwards and he'd throw me the ball and I'd take the backs you know, so it was easy that way and I had the likes of Alex Murphy at half, Davy Bolton, Eric Ashton at centre, so they're all experienced good players so it was pretty easy and then Alan run the forwards and then later in the training Peach (Prescott) would get together, it was great you know.

RL: When you got back home after a tour like that, how did the other players respond to you? Did they try and test you out back home as well?

PJ: Well no there wasn't much testing-out going on in England, we were all seasoned footballers and we treated, matter of fact, we treated each other with a great deal of respect and as I say it was a very good standard in England in those days and you didn't test anyone out. You didn't use the word test 'em out, you're just flat out against each other, you know. And we had respect for each other.

It's a funny thing you know in those days, I'd never even heard the word sledging and I can't remember anyone saying anything to me. You'd just go through the games and the only people you spoke to was your own side. I can't remember anyone having words or anything like that during those days. I see it goes on a lot here now but nothing like that in England in those days, no. We all had respect for each other and if you had any ideas about a player you just spoke among your own team mates about them. Like, he didn't like people running straight at him or he's defence, but you never uttered that to the other players.

RL: ...you just them belt with a stiff arm instead!

PJ: Oh well everyone used that in those days.

RL: How did you end up living here in Australia? How did that come about?

PS: Well, that's a good story. I wanted to come here as I said and I saw, it was advertised, I don't know whether I saw it advertised in England or I saw it over here, the NSW Leagues Club were advertising for a Liaison Officer to the schools and I thought hell I'd like that you know, and I hadn't considered playing because of my knee injury and I applied for it. And I'll tell you who got the job, remember Dave Brown with the bald head? He got the job and of course I missed out on it but there was a league writer then and he was of my favourite league writers in Australia, George Crawford. Somehow he got in the paper that I wanted to come here to play.

RL: But you couldn't play...

PJ: That's right. Well I couldn't play in Sydney. Right out of the blue I got an offer from Goulburn Workers Club and the terms, playing money and everything were like they was big stuff compared to the comparative pittance I'd been getting back in England and this is in the NSW bush.

So I said to my wife Ruth, I'd like to do that and I said I think I'd get by in the Bush on one leg because I was big for a back and not only could I run and step and all that when I was fit I had good ball skills and I could still use my ball skills being big enough to take the tackle and slip the ball and my defence was still good so I said I think I'll get by the Bush and fortunately my wife said, well would you like to do it and I said yes.

RL: You had stopped playing though in England.

PJ: Oh yeah I wasn't playing I had to give it away. I tried it, tried it a few games in the "A" team which was the second team. You called it the A team but it was not good enough you know.

RL: So what year did you come out here?

PJ: I came out here in March 1960 to Goulburn and put myself in the front row and I was one of the biggest men in the team and I'd been a back you know, centre, 5/8th on the international team and I had 8 great years at Goulburn. Won a few premierships never missed the semis, won a lot of knock-outs.

RL: All with the Workers?

PJ: Oh yeah and I'd like to think that I had an influence on the game here. As a matter of fact, you probably wouldn't remember in those days Australia when we first came out here, and I think they were still doing it in 1958, the forwards used to get up in a line and run at the defence and the dummy half would pass the ball behind them. I couldn't work that out because when I was the main ball man when I was playing with the Workers Club. We never used to do that, we used to run off each other so you'd have the first receiver taking it up and the others running off him.

But this way of operating the Australians used to do, those men of which were just having a bludge, you know, they were putting themself up there, the ball going behind them but the way I was doing it, mainly with the Workers Club, I made myself first receiver and I'd have the men behind me ready to receive the ball either side of me.

RL: There's a lot more options...

PJ: Oh hell yeah and it proved very successful in Goulburn, you know. As a matter of fact I coached the combined Country sides in 1961 and 62 and they hadn't beaten City for about 15 years or something like that. We beat them in 1961 and 62 with those methods. It worked out very nicely we bamboozled City and they had the Gasniers and those then. But we beat them up the middle just turning the ball back inside and that, you know, and Australia then started adopting that sort of play.

And I couldn't work it out in defence, I had players running at me with the shoulder down and they were passing the ball behind them and I said to the referees in Group 8 where Goulburn was, I said what the hell is going on here, this is Gridiron. Well they were running at me with the shoulder and the ball is going behind them and it was, it was obstruction, you know, it wasn't just a shepherd, playing obstruction running at you with the shoulder down. They were passing the ball behind them.

After the Country side beat the City sides you know in such dramatic fashion, I think the coaches then in Sydney started looking at their style of football.

RL: So you don't think the English would be too impressed to hear that you taught the Aussies how to improve the level of their football?

PJ: Well, as a matter of fact, Dave Bolton was telling me only just recently, he heard David Waite who is now the English coach, being interviewed and he said what has happened is we've learnt over the years off you fellas that have come here and he mentioned Dave Bolton, John Gray, you know, English players and I didn't get a mention of course - David wouldn’t know much about me cause I went and played in the bush so he mentioned the players who had come and played in Sydney but he said that's what happened and I entirely agree with him.

The Aussies have learnt off us and then with the way the Aussies have put themselves into it and with the poker machines and better training facilities and everything, but they've added their own style to that which is you know great defence, more emphasis on defence. We had nothing wrong with our defence in those days, but there certainly has been in the last decade.

And I'll tell you a thing that I introduced here too. When we were playing in France, we would be standing in the tunnel to go out. Now in England we only had a dressing shed, that was it you know, the most you could do before a match was a few knee bends and that sort of thing and go out. But in France we'd be waiting in the tunnel to go out with them and they'd arrive to walk out with us all lathered in sweat and I thought was the hell's going on here? They'd been out at an adjacent ground loosening up like they do here know and they'd start like rockets, the Frenchman, and we'd have to slow them down.

But they always started like rockets. So when I came out here, and most of the grounds particularly in the country have got adjacent grounds, I used to take my Goulburn Workers Club side out to loosen up and run around with the ball as they all do now but no-one else used to do that. I did it. I did it with those Country rep teams. I took the Country teams out on SCG number 2.

RL: So you started pre-match warm-ups?

PJ: Yeah, nobody knows that. I started that and of course that's the natural thing to do isn't it?

But you can't do it England much, I don't know what they do now. But you can't do it in England because there aren't many places you can, most of the grounds are just a rugby ground in the middle of terraced houses, you know, no adjacent grounds.

RL: How did you end up in settling in Wagga Wagga?

PJ: Well after I retired I certainly didn't want to go back to the shipyards in England. While I was in Goulburn I' worked behind the bar at the Workers Club and sold cars. I was 27 or maybe 28 when I came here. Played all those years I was 39 when I retired. After I retired... no its just dawned on me... after I retired from Goulburn Workers Club, you know the place near Canberra called Bungendore?

RL: Yes that's on the way down to Canberra from Sydney.

PJ: Well there was a bloke used to come and watch us from Bungendore and he was a big rugby league man and he approached me when I retired from the Workers Club to go as a non-playing coach with Bungendore and just travel, you know. I said yeah sure and I finished up playing more games than anyone in the club again and we played in the grand final.

You wouldn't believe it and you know my crook knee, I could kick with it. I could kick well with it. Used to kick for the line and that sort of thing. They didn't used to do that when I went to Goulburn either and they'd be heading down and something trying to clear the line and I'd just kick and gain about 40/50 yards you know.

And I worked hard on the scrum. I was in the front row so we'd get down on their line with the kick and win the ball, you know, which is a hell of a lot better than what they'd been doing previously. Well, we'd clear the line and win the ball on their line. It was a scrum with their feed but I'd put a lot of work in and before I left England I got a few front rowers and got a lot of tips off them.

I regret that now that there's no fair dinkum scrums it used to be a skill you know, very tough job in the front row but it was a skill and an art and I'd learnt all these tricks of the trade off a lot of fellas in England before I came here and I put those to good use in Goulburn and we'd clear the line easy, win the ball and then we camped on their line and in those days you didn't have to cough it up after 6 tackles. You just kept it. So if you kept on their line you're going to score eventually.

RL: Since then you've been in Wagga Wagga?

PJ: About 1967/68 I got an approach from Canterbury-Bankstown with Peter Moore. He was a good mate of mine Peter and I would've gone there but I didn't want to take the kids to the City (Sydney) so Wagga was a good compromise being a big large country town. Moore wanted me to go as Canterbury coach. I fancied the job but I didn't fancy living in the City.

And I moved into a hotel here for 2 years then I moved to another hotel in Wagga and spent 8 years in that hotel and been here ever since. That was 1971 I came to Wagga, been here ever since. I've coached Riverina a few times. I got a divisional premiership here - forget when it was some years back I coached Riverina quite a few different times, enjoyed it but we won it once. We beat Illawarra down on the Wollongong Showground I forget which year that it was.

RL: Your son-in-law is the former Manly player Steve Martin?

PJ: Yeah, that's right, he is. He met my daughter at high school. You know who got him to Sydney?

RL: I remember he arrived in 1978 with a bang at Manly, they called him the “wiz-kid”...

PJ: I recommended him to Ken Arthurson and he went straight into first grade training squad. Ken Arthurson has a tale that he was down here and saw this blonde headed kid running around and signed him up. That wasn't it at all. I think it was the '75 tour I was coaching combined Country and we went to New Zealand and Ken came with us obviously looking for players.

I got to know him quite well and I told him about Steve Martin and when I got back I rang him up and he said, well I'll take your word for it, bring him down and he said and we'll house him here and he'll train with the first grade squad. And you know the rest, it just shows how good he is, he made firsts and that same year he played for NSW and went on the 1978 Kangaroo tour.

RL : Do you ever get back to England?

PJ: I've been back 3 times to see family. I haven't made the Lions reunion yet. I'd like to one day. They have all the public there with the players, and as much as they can they split the internationals up with one international per table and they have hundreds there.

RL: What about the current state of the British team?

PJ: Yes, I'd like to see the Poms win some Tests. Rugby league needs it and it would make them so much ground that's been lost if the Poms became competitive again wouldn't it. I've got a photograph up here now of the last test in '58 and I think there was 68,000 at the ground you know. That was the Sydney Cricket Ground, you can imagine it was packed out and wonderful atmosphere and everything you know. What do we get now at the tests, 30,000 if lucky. Rugby league needs tests.

RL: They seem to be good at taking one test a series but just can't quite get the series.

PJ: I can't work it out, the standard of the English players you know. Is it going to get any better with so many Australians over there? You know it makes you wonder are the locals not bothering about it, you know, they're losing their place to Australians. Is it having an effect that way? I wouldn't mind em getting back up their game even if was Australians that got the standard up - the important thing is that they get back up there. I'm not too optimistic about it. I live in hope but I tell you what I've stopped backing England in anything!

RL: So you still watch the game?

PJ: I still take a great deal of interest in rugby league. I very seldom miss a Wagga Kangaroos match and they've had 3 successive premierships you know.

Phil Jackson Interview: Wagga Wagga, NSW - October 2001

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