Interview with Sean Fagan

Q: How did the idea for The Rugby Rebellion book come about?
A: In searching through archives and old newspapers, for articles I was writing on the RL1908.com website, it became apparent to me that much of what is accepted as 'the facts', of League and Union history, was not really the case. Most books and articles (with a few exceptions) have just been simply re-hashing tired old stories that have become accepted lore.

I also felt that the era immediately before and after the birth of League in Australia had never been fully explored. I didn't realise at the time, but when I produced 'The Founders' series of articles on RL1908.com, I had actually sketched out the bones of a very fascinating story. Sometime in late 2003 the thought of writing such a book began to take hold - I had to do it.

Q: Did any other writer's works inspire you into action?
A: I think after I read Laura Hillenbrand's Seabiscuit I knew I wanted to have a go at doing it. I was also greatly influenced by two movies: Martin Scorsese's Gangs of New York, and Peter Weir's Master and Commander. I was struck by how careful they were to reconstruct the time and events they were based upon. The Rugby Rebellion isn't a novel, but I wanted to make sure it was enjoyable to read, and communicate something about what playing and supporting football, and life generally, was like a century ago - without getting bogged-down in the social issues that many sporting history books seem to want to do.

Q: What were your sources?
A: For primary material, I decided not to use any books or articles that had been written after WW2. The majority of The Rugby Rebellion's content comes from the newspapers and journals of the day, which I was able to access at the NSW State Library. In February 2004 I went to Library every day, collecting as much material as I could. At night I would review where I was at, what the documents were telling me, which would help refine my search for the next day.

I also used some books from that time, written by footballers, team managers and journalists. Thanks to the ARU, I was given access to their archives - these included minute books from NSWRU meetings and player scrapbooks, presumably donated by families long ago. I continued to research specific matters as they arose during the writing of the book.

Fortuitously, I came into contact with the grandson of Pat 'Nimmo' Walsh - he was able to provide some recollections from family members and some very useful articles I hadn't come across. These all filled in some crucial gaps in the puzzle, and, most importantly, revealed James Giltinan's involvement with rugby way before previously known.

Q: You were 'knocked-back' by publishers?
A: Yes, my agent did his best to place the book with a publisher, but most said they simply didn't see enough interest from the sporting (League in particular) public in such a book. I know it wasn't through lack of trying on my agent's part as he has a very good strike rate with sports books. I could have given up at that point, but I was determined that this was something that had to be released. In the end, I managed to (somehow) put the money together to finance the publishing myself under RL1908. Looking back now, I am glad it happened that way - the extra six months I gained really turned the book into something I am very pleased with. The content is now much more compelling, in both facts and writing style.

Q: You used other experts?
A: Definitely. In terms of the production itself, Helen Elward at Best Legenz did the all the design layout work and found a great printer and distributor. I also used a text and photographic editor to tighten up the work, and enhance the photo reproduction quality.

In regard to the book's content itself, I involved other people where needed - Tony Collins (RFL Archivist & author of 'Rugby's Great Split') reviewed the manuscript and assisted with finding some material in England. Geoff Armstrong (who puts together all cricketer Steve Waugh's books) also read a copy and assisted with some cricket issues that came up. David Middleton and Ian Heads also read early drafts, but due to their own commitments, were limited to making a few points. All of these people though were valuable to the end result - they challenged me on some aspects, so I was able to go back and reflect on those issues, and either tighten up the work, provide further evidence or clarification, or drop it out altogether.

I also used some 'old-time' Sydney lawyers to review the 'All Golds' tour contract, to really get a handle on how such documents were prepared at the time, and how easy it would have been to add in Messenger's name at the last moment (which didn't happen). I also engaged a researcher to dig through city and suburban Council archives to try to uncover some more information on exactly where Trumper's Market St store was (No.108 has apparently moved many times!), and when Messenger booked his 1907 farewell function in Woollhara - on both counts the search revealed nothing, and I wasted my time and money. Similarly, trying to find an Australian cricket tour contract from the early 1900s proved to be impossible. But that is the challenge of researching for such a book.

Q: There has been plenty written over the years telling the story of the split between League and Union in Australia and New Zealand, what's new here, what makes this book unique?
A: For the first time, it has been covered in full, from the late 1890s through to 1910. I wanted to ensure I covered the story from 'both sides of the fence'. Everything previously written has been by a League or Union journalist from the perspective of their code, and looking back from today: either Messenger was poached in 1907 by the greedy League, or he was a poorly treated working-class footballer looking for fair rewards from his labour. Through my research I have pinned down exactly what happened and what the motives behind each side were.

I have also uncovered a lot (a helluva lot!) of new material - most of which I have used in quotes, so it is there in print for all to see and make their own minds up about what happened. I took this approach a bit further by making sure I included descriptions from match reports, particularly of Messenger, Chris McKivat and other star players in action - to help illustrate whether these footballers were as great as the accepted lore tells us.

I am satisfied that the real story of this era has come out in the book, and readers will get a great appreciation of what happened and what rugby (both codes) was like at that time (on and off the field). I also used quotes from all the key men involved, so you can hear in their own voices what they were thinking. I deliberately wrote the book in 'real-time' , so you don't know what will happen next. Nothing is 'revealed' until it actually happens, and I don't explore issues based on what happened later. For example, when Trumper first appears in the book, as a rugby player in the late 1890s, there is no mention made of rugby league or his involvement in founding it. It helps to keep the drama, and make the overall 'history lesson' an enjoyable read.

Q: Of all the events recounted in the book, which stands out most in your mind?
A: That's difficult, as there are so many - I still enjoy reading the book now. I was surprised that the payment of money to players was rife in Sydney from the late 1890s onwards, certainly the extent of it surprised me. How close Aussie rules came to taking over NSW in the 1870s and again in the early 1900s. The amount of players moving back and forth between New Zealand and Australia to join clubs was amazing. Coming across proof that Messenger was paid by the Rugby Union was a big shock. As was finding an article in The Bulletin laying out the motives of Giltinan and Trumper, who were far more than innocent by-standers who just happened to help the dissatisfied footballers. Even small events, such as a dumped NSW player turning out in his blue state jersey in a club match as a protest, they are telling in the overall story.

Q: What do you think will most surprise readers of this book?
A: How little we really know of that era in our sporting history. All of the issues of today that we think are unique or modern problems, they were all there a century ago. Issues to do with how the money is shared between the governing bodies and the players, how there are secret payments to players, how do you stop some clubs from hording all the best talent, how much say should the clubs have, all the people hanging-off the players, the public complaining about team selections. It will be interesting for the people involved in running the codes today to look back and see how problems were handled in the past, what solutions they found and used.

Little things like team names will surprise readers. The League seems to have taken all its jersey colours and nicknames from Union - for example, the NSW team were always called 'the Blues', right back into the 1890s, there are no 'Waratahs'. Similarly, the NZRL team are never called 'Kiwis', but are 'professional All Blacks' or 'Maorilanders'. I made sure in writing the book that I used the nicknames that were in place at the time - so names such as Waratahs and Kiwis, which normally would abound in a Union/League history book, are nowhere to be found.

I also included a photograph of Victor Trumper's Sports Store in Market Street, where the first secret meetings were held in 1907. To be able to see the front of the building, with Trumper's bats and other memorabilia in the display window, it really gives you a sense of of the place and time. I made sure I could include as many photos as possible, some of which have not been published in book form before, or anywhere for that matter.

Q: Who do you consider are the most interesting people in this book?
A: Certainly Messenger - he is certainly ambiguous in his statements and actions. He was particularly hard to pin down in terms of his motives. He was definitely far more than just a star footballer who's services were being fought over. Alec Burdon turned out to be far more of an important figure than just someone who hurt his shoulder amidst the time of the uprising. The MRU's administrator during 'the split', Billy Howe, as well as the NSWRU's 'father' Monty Arnold - sometimes you wonder which side of the fence they were on.

Definitely, Glebe RU Club's Lewis Abrams - the so-called 'father of the district scheme' was a very interesting man. He fought from within the Unions to improve players conditions and rugby's playing rules, even after the League started. Abrams' laid out the district club scheme which League followed right through until the 1990s and Sydney RU still has. Arguments about whether Souths Rabbitohs should leave Redfern or move to Gosford are non-sensical when you put them in the context of Abrams' original plan - the clubs represented their district in the same way NSW were represented by the state team - to move a club was an implausibility.

Q: What do you want readers to get out of this book?
A: I hope that they will gain an understanding of where today's Union and League monoliths came from. What each code stood for, what the players wanted from their game, what mattered to the crowds and supporters of that time. Also to gain an understanding of the motives of the men involved, their clubs and organizations. What our society was like a century ago. The book is a serious historical account of the 'great divide', but I have deliberately tried to make it an entertaining story that takes people back to a world that is both familiar, and different. Unlike a typical player's biography book, where you know pretty much what is going to happen on the next page, The Rugby Rebellion is really covering new ground for fans.